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Should We obey an unjust Law or Command

Printed From: CaribbeanChoice
Category: General Discussion
Forum Name: Religion, Theology & Spirituality
Forum Discription: Discussions relating to spirituality, religion, theology, God and the nature of universe.
URL: http://www.caribbeanchoice.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=76635
Printed Date: 05 July 2020 at 5:07pm


Topic: Should We obey an unjust Law or Command
Posted By: frankster
Subject: Should We obey an unjust Law or Command
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2006 at 10:45am
Would or should one obey an unjust command given by God ?
Can God Give an unjust command ?


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Replies:
Posted By: Alize
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2006 at 11:08am
Did God give an Unjust Command? if so, what is it?

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* The most important thing in


Posted By: sandra
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2006 at 12:23pm
on't think God ever gave an unjust command. I try to obey all His commands. It's hard, but I really do try.


Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2006 at 10:58pm
Most (if not all) "unjust commands from God" aren't really from God, they are from unjust men who are using God to get their way or who misunderstand what God intended.

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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
http://www.wistex.com/ - WisTex | http://www.completehostingguide.com/ - Complete Hosting Guide


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2006 at 5:39am
Originally posted by Alize

Did God give an Unjust Command? if so, what is it?
 
 
The question at first is hypothetical , so it matters little wether God did or did not give an unjust command .
So in that sense the question remains relevant : would you obey an unjust command given by God ?


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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2006 at 5:42am
Originally posted by Scott

Most (if not all) "unjust commands from God" aren't really from God, they are from unjust men who are using God to get their way or who misunderstand what God intended.
 
What say you of the binding of Isaac by Moses to be used as human sacrifice , an abominable practice which we later see manifest in the crucifixtion of Jesus .


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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2006 at 5:44am
Originally posted by sandra

on't think God ever gave an unjust command. I try to obey all His commands. It's hard, but I really do try.
 
Ever read the book of Joshua ?


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Posted By: ilam96
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2006 at 12:31pm
you should really learn your bible inside and out before coming down hard on your creator, esp. for stuff that happened many many moons ago and which pro'lly won't happen again, and definitely not happening to you. the question you should be asking is to yourself, whether or not YOU would do it. peace bro Wink

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"I cried because I had no shoe, until I met a man with no feet."


Posted By: world42
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2006 at 12:41pm
You also have to consider something else.  How do we know what is a command of God and what is not?  After all, many men have tried to interpret and understand what God intends and wants.
 
And here is an interesting thing to consider if you are talking Christianity here:  Jesus, the son of God, was quoted in the Bible, but never wrote anything in the Bible.  So even if He was/is the Son of God, every section was written by man based on the history and culture of the time, which happened to include the practice of human sacrifice.  That means that every section of the Bible is subject to man's interpretation of God. 
 
If the Bible were written today, it would still have the same message from God preaching love and peace and how to live a better life, but would sound different because of a different culture and history, yet the truths would remain the same.
 
And if you look at other religions, and boil away the history, the culture, the characters, you will find that all religions teach the same things.  To me, that is proof that there must be a God.
 
In the end, you have to follow your heart and grow your spirituality and in doing so you will get closer to God.


Posted By: vutjebal
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2006 at 12:47pm
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It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.


Posted By: ilam96
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2006 at 12:51pm
ok the reason i said u need to learn your bible inside out, was bcoz Isaac was born to Abraham, and it was him God asked to sacrifice his son, and it has nothing to do with the sacrifice of Christ bcoz Abraham's sacrifice did not go thru, for God stopped him before Isaac was killed. What was important, was Abraham's faith in God, as was important in the crucifiction of Christ...our faith in God and his son.

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"I cried because I had no shoe, until I met a man with no feet."


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2006 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by ilam96

ok the reason i said u need to learn your bible inside out, was bcoz Isaac was born to Abraham, and it was him God asked to sacrifice his son, and it has nothing to do with the sacrifice of Christ bcoz Abraham's sacrifice did not go thru, for God stopped him before Isaac was killed. What was important, was Abraham's faith in God, as was important in the crucifiction of Christ...our faith in God and his son.


Thats precisely my point , Would you kill your child because God told you to ?
What Abraham showed was blind faith and in my mind he failed the test that God was Giveing him . It prove his willingness to practice child sacrifice a most dispicable  act .  Abraham Sacrifice did not go thru because the Angel stopped him , not due to his own efforts . The willingness to destroy human life for God is horrible .

The type of faith Abraham displayed is wicked and reprehensible , to be willing to destroy your own child who is innocent and blameless shows a cruel if not psychotic state of mind .
Only Tyrants and despots demand blind faith . It is my understanding that God wants  LOVE




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Posted By: ilam96
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 9:42am
you are placing too much emphasis on something that never happened my dear, as to having faith...our creator is a very selfish God who will not share us with no one, not even the ones we bring forth to this earth, but if u think about it for a bit, without Him we would not be able to bring forth life to earth, so he has every right to pose and dispose of anything He created...i mean, after all, you would too if you were in his position, but alas, none of us are.

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"I cried because I had no shoe, until I met a man with no feet."


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 5:28pm
ilam96
 
you are placing too much emphasis on something that never happened my dear
 
People are put away for a very long time for such things "that never happen" and rightly so . What it proves is that the mind of Abraham may have been depraved . Anyways it has happened at many other time that the innocent have been put to death on the allege say so of God .
 
 
,
as to having faith...our creator is a very selfish God who will not share us with no one, not even the ones we bring forth to this earth,
 
And you believe that such a God is LOVE , when since is selfishness a virtue ? I still see it as a vice . This is what happens when you worship a Cruel God , you confuse good with evil . 
 
 
but if u think about it for a bit, without Him we would not be able to bring forth life to earth, so he has every right to pose and dispose of anything He created...
 
So because I am able to father kids it is in my right to dispose of them , or do with them as I see fit ?
I should hope That God is more than the tyrannical despot you are making him or her out to be .
 
i mean, after all, you would too if you were in his position, but alas, none of us are.
 
Speak for yourself , I have no urge to kill innocent human beings or even the guilty for that matter


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Posted By: vutjebal
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 5:35pm
I think I am lost in this discussion...or...Topic....Confused

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It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 5:38pm
[world42]
 
You also have to consider something else.  How do we know what is a command of God and what is not?  After all, many men have tried to interpret and understand what God intends and wants.
 
Are you calling into question the veracity of the bible ?
 
And here is an interesting thing to consider if you are talking Christianity here:  Jesus, the son of God, was quoted in the Bible, but never wrote anything in the Bible.  So even if He was/is the Son of God, every section was written by man based on the history and culture of the time, which happened to include the practice of human sacrifice.  That means that every section of the Bible is subject to man's interpretation of God. 
 
God himself wrote nothing in the bible , and in almost all things God uses the agency of man to carry out his wishes .
Yes it is all up to man intrepretation as he is Gods agent . 
 
If the Bible were written today, it would still have the same message from God preaching love and peace and how to live a better life, but would sound different because of a different culture and history, yet the truths would remain the same.
 
How can you be so sure after having called in to question the accuracy and authenticity of bible , on what now do you base these assertions of what Gods message would or will be ?
 
 
And if you look at other religions, and boil away the history, the culture, the characters, you will find that all religions teach the same things.  To me, that is proof that there must be a God.
 
Or that man is a moral being .
 
In the end, you have to follow your heart and grow your spirituality and in doing so you will get closer to God.
 
With this I have no argument .


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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by vutjebal

I think I am lost in this discussion...or...Topic....Confused
 
reread the first post .


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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by ilam96

you should really learn your bible inside and out before coming down hard on your creator, esp. for stuff that happened many many moons ago and which pro'lly won't happen again, and definitely not happening to you. the question you should be asking is to yourself, whether or not YOU would do it. peace bro Wink
 
I would not do it !
 
WOULD YOU ?


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Posted By: WIsTex42
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by frankster

And you believe that such a God is LOVE , when since is selfishness a virtue ? I still see it as a vice . This is what happens when you worship a Cruel God , you confuse good with evil . 

Do not confuse God with man's explanation, interpretation or (mis)understanding of God.

Many bad things have been done in God's name and I seriously doubt God would approve.

God is love. I don't care what any book tells me, even if it is a holy book or not.


Posted By: vutjebal
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 5:48pm
Frankster..sorry,  There is such of hate in you and I don't know what have happen in your live or who did something to you, but it must be  something big and horrible that became in such a HATE..Oh%20My

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It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.


Posted By: ilam96
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by frankster

People are put away for a very long time for such things "that never happen" and rightly so . What it proves is that the mind of Abraham may have been depraved . Anyways it has happened at many other time that the innocent have been put to death on the allege say so of God .
 
yes, i agree, it has happened...by human error...the case in point was 1. not human; 2. not an error....everything was precisely calculated by the only being that can do that.
 
Originally posted by frankster

And you believe that such a God is LOVE , when since is selfishness a virtue ? I still see it as a vice . This is what happens when you worship a Cruel God , you confuse good with evil.
 
the love i talk of is an unconditional love, that which you and i can never begin to comprehend, especially when we blind ourselves to an all encompassing being that knows what is in our hearts even before we do.
  
Originally posted by frankster

So because I am able to father kids it is in my right to dispose of them , or do with them as I see fit ?
I should hope That God is more than the tyrannical despot you are making him or her out to be.
 
no u may not 'dispose' of them, but don't u feel responsible to mold this being that came forth from you into a respectable person...? or do u prefer to see him down and in despair, when you can help him, help himself...?
 
 
Originally posted by frankster

Speak for yourself , I have no urge to kill innocent human beings or even the guilty for that matter


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"I cried because I had no shoe, until I met a man with no feet."


Posted By: ilam96
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 6:01pm

my answer to that last quote is, "neither do i".  It is not our place to say who deserves to die, but its not our place to decide who lives either.



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"I cried because I had no shoe, until I met a man with no feet."


Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2006 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by frankster

Originally posted by world42

If the Bible were written today, it would still have the same message from God preaching love and peace and how to live a better life, but would sound different because of a different culture and history, yet the truths would remain the same.


How can you be so sure after having called in to question the accuracy and authenticity of bible , on what now do you base these assertions of what Gods message would or will be ?


I am not sure what world42's answer will be and I am not sure what world42 said is totally accurate, but as for me, I do know in my limited study of religion that somehow goodness and love keep resurfacing in the message... in every religion.

Its part of the reason why I am convinced that there is a higher power.  Call it God, call it the Universe, call it Allah, call it Love, call it Bob.  It doesn't really matter.  Something universal is there that spans all races, religions and creeds.

Me, I try to guide myself with unconditional love, which is an aspect of what I call God.  When I do that, everything seems to fall in place and the right think is done at the right time and the right place.  Even if it doesn't appear that way at the time. [/quote]


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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
http://www.wistex.com/ - WisTex | http://www.completehostingguide.com/ - Complete Hosting Guide


Posted By: vutjebal
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2006 at 5:40am
Where Evil's Evil%20Smile things happen, Gods LOVE  is  missing.Wink

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It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.


Posted By: vutjebal
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2006 at 5:50am
Originally posted by Scott

Originally posted by frankster

Originally posted by world42

If the Bible were written today, it would still have the same message from God preaching love and peace and how to live a better life, but would sound different because of a different culture and history, yet the truths would remain the same.

How can you be so sure after having called in to question the accuracy and authenticity of bible , on what now do you base these assertions of what Gods message would or will be ?


I am not sure what world42's answer will be and I am not sure what world42 said is totally accurate, but as for me, I do know in my limited study of religion that somehow goodness and love keep resurfacing in the message... in every religion.

Its part of the reason why I am convinced that there is a higher power.  Call it God, call it the Universe, call it Allah, call it Love, call it Bob.  It doesn't really matter.  Something universal is there that spans all races, religions and creeds.

Me, I try to guide myself with unconditional love, which is an aspect of what I call God.  When I do that, everything seems to fall in place and the right think is done at the right time and the right place.  Even if it doesn't appear that way at the time.
[/QUOTE]
You're right  Scott about  the last one...I deal with it almost  everyday.. because  I have  faith in like you said a higher power.....Wink I can proof it.


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It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2006 at 7:17am
[WIsTex42]
And you believe that such a God is LOVE , when since is selfishness a virtue ? I still see it as a vice . This is what happens when you worship a Cruel God , you confuse good with evil . 
[/QUOTE]
Do not confuse God with man's explanation, interpretation or (mis)understanding of God.
 
Where did I confuse God with mans explanation .


Many bad things have been done in God's name and I seriously doubt God would approve.
 
 
Is the bible in error ? in the case of Isaac's binding , it was God,s wishes .
 


God is love. I don't care what any book tells me, even if it is a holy book or not.
[/QUOTE]
 
Did you know that most of  the victims of domestic violence , thinks their spouse's love them .


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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2006 at 7:23am
Originally posted by vutjebal

Frankster..sorry,  There is such of hate in you and I don't know what have happen in your live or who did something to you, but it must be  something big and horrible that became in such a HATE..Oh%20My
 
Where is my hate ?
Show me ?


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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2006 at 7:35am
[ilam96]
People are put away for a very long time for such things "that never happen" and rightly so . What it proves is that the mind of Abraham may have been depraved . Anyways it has happened at many other time that the innocent have been put to death on the allege say so of God .
 
yes, i agree, it has happened...by human error...the case in point was 1. not human; 2. not an error....everything was precisely calculated by the only being that can do that.[/quote]
 
 
Was Abraham not human ?
 
THats call premeditation , so he plan to kill or threaten ?
 
Do you endorse this type of behaviour ?
 
 
Originally posted by frankster

And you believe that such a God is LOVE , when since is selfishness a virtue ? I still see it as a vice . This is what happens when you worship a Cruel God , you confuse good with evil.
 
the love i talk of is an unconditional love, that which you and i can never begin to comprehend, especially when we blind ourselves to an all encompassing being that knows what is in our hearts even before we do.
 
 
This selfish God has unconditional love ?
 
Of course  I cannot comprehend this type of unconditional love in which violence and pyschological turture is accepted as loving .
What father having a son deserving of bread would give him a stone .
  
[quoye]
Originally posted by frankster

So because I am able to father kids it is in my right to dispose of them , or do with them as I see fit ?
I should hope That God is more than the tyrannical despot you are making him or her out to be.
 
no u may not 'dispose' of them, but don't u feel responsible to mold this being that came forth from you into a respectable person...? or do u prefer to see him down and in despair, when you can help him, help himself...?[/quote]
 
I would give him the room to be who he is .
 
 
Originally posted by frankster

Speak for yourself , I have no urge to kill innocent human beings or even the guilty for that matter
[/quote]
 
 


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Posted By: vutjebal
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2006 at 8:20am
Originally posted by frankster

Originally posted by vutjebal

Frankster..sorry,  There is such of hate in you and I don't know what have happen in your live or who did something to you, but it must be  something big and horrible that became in such a HATE..Oh%20My
 
Where is my hate ?
Show me ?
okay frankster...just one  question ..What do you want  to ashieve with your Hate towards  God.???/ I don't read  the Bible....but I believe in myself  and my feelings for  nature and that there is a Higher Power, but  I don't  believe in coincidence..(there is always a reason why things happens)   and  I  never never  in my life  upto now , know what is  Hate... someone or something. I  don't like to use that word neither.Shocked
But  oops ...the way you came forth with your meaning towards God...Confused
 
wow...Oh%20My


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It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.


Posted By: ilam96
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2006 at 6:43pm
ok, this is my standpoint. i will not argue over should've, could've, would've. as far as i'm concerned, IT NEVER HAPPENED. i will also never agrue with someone so poor in spirit that his hunger for righteousness is leading him anywhere but...maybe his mourning will turn to laughter when he ceases to follow the footsteps of man.

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"I cried because I had no shoe, until I met a man with no feet."


Posted By: vutjebal
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2006 at 7:53pm
okay  this  is  for  vutjebal...Censored...........Wink

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It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2006 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Scott

Originally posted by frankster

Originally posted by world42

If the Bible were written today, it would still have the same message from God preaching love and peace and how to live a better life, but would sound different because of a different culture and history, yet the truths would remain the same.

How can you be so sure after having called in to question the accuracy and authenticity of bible , on what now do you base these assertions of what Gods message would or will be ?


I am not sure what world42's answer will be and I am not sure what world42 said is totally accurate, but as for me, I do know in my limited study of religion that somehow goodness and love keep resurfacing in the message... in every religion.

Its part of the reason why I am convinced that there is a higher power.  Call it God, call it the Universe, call it Allah, call it Love, call it Bob.  It doesn't really matter.  Something universal is there that spans all races, religions and creeds.

Me, I try to guide myself with unconditional love, which is an aspect of what I call God.  When I do that, everything seems to fall in place and the right think is done at the right time and the right place.  Even if it doesn't appear that way at the time.
[/QUOTE]

Their is a vein of truth in what you have sad , but it does not address the question  .


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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2006 at 1:21pm
vutjebal
okay frankster...just one  question ..What do you want  to ashieve with your Hate towards  God.???/


Why is my question seen by you as hatred towards God ?

 
I don't read  the Bible....but I believe in myself  and my feelings for  nature and that there is a Higher Power,


We have the right to believe whatever we choose

 
but  I don't  believe in coincidence..(there is always a reason why things happens)  


Its the true nature of of that higher power , that I am desirous of knowing ?

and  I  never never  in my life  upto now , know what is  Hate... someone or something. I  don't like to use that word neither.Shocked
But  oops ...the way you came forth with your meaning towards God...Confused


If you never knew hate how were you able to feel or see it in my query ?
As far as I know uptil know I have yet to accuse God of anything , all I have done is ask an hypothetical question .
 


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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2006 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by frankster

Its the true nature of of that higher power , that I am desirous of knowing ?

The problem with that question is that you can never get an accurate answer from a human about that.

In my experience, in talking with people of various religions and visiting various churches, synagogues, and temples, most people describe God in terms they understand and in terms they are familiar with, and often attribute their own personal and cultural ideals on what God is and isn't.  You ask 1,000 people what God is, and you get 1,001 different answers.  You could even go on to say that perhaps some people "create" God in their own image instead of discovering what God really is.

Personally, I would not follow a cruel and punishing God.  And it is interesting that you should describe God as potentially being a cruel God based on things you have read or heard.  I dealt with the same issue growing up.  The churches I grew up in preached fire and brimstone, and described a punishing God who will condemn you to@#$%if you don't do as He commanded.  I refused to follow such a God.  I would only follow a loving, supporting God, not an angry, punishing God who enjoys punishing people for their sins.

The preacher's sermons actually drove me away from God instead of towards Him.

The question I asked of God was this:  "What is the truth?" 

I did not ask to be a better Christian.  I did not ask to be a better follower.  I asked God for the truth.  And over the next few years, I had many experiences that helped me to see what the true nature of God is and the true nature of religion is.  I discovered that they are not always aligned.

I do not claim to know the truth, and perhaps what is different about me compared to many others is I know that I do not have the whole truth.

But the God I eventually found was the God that was always there, though misrepresented by most humans.  God is far more loving and forgiving and supportive than we can even imagine.

May your search reveal to you what you need to see.


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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
http://www.wistex.com/ - WisTex | http://www.completehostingguide.com/ - Complete Hosting Guide


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2007 at 6:52am
Originally posted by Scott

[/QUO

The problem with that question is that you can never get an accurate answer from a human about that.


The extent of the accuracy I seek is the conception of him that is held in earnest by us humans and from whence it is derived .

In my experience, in talking with people of various religions and visiting various churches, synagogues, and temples, most people describe God in terms they understand and in terms they are familiar with, and often attribute their own personal and cultural ideals on what God is and isn't.  You ask 1,000 people what God is, and you get 1,001 different answers.  You could even go on to say that perhaps some people "create" God in their own image instead of discovering what God really is.


This is expected and that is what I seek of each individual poster . Even though each individual idea of God is different what they share in common is often time more than how they differ .

Personally, I would not follow a cruel and punishing God.


The most vile and cruel of human being shares your sentiments , yet they often say it is the same God most human worship that tells them or on whose behave the do their most dastardly deeds

 
And it is interesting that you should describe God as potentially being a cruel God based on things you have read or heard.  I dealt with the same issue growing up.  The churches I grew up in preached fire and brimstone, and described a punishing God who will condemn you to@#$%if you don't do as He commanded.  I refused to follow such a God.  I would only follow a loving, supporting God, not an angry, punishing God who enjoys punishing people for their sins.


It is your right and privilege to do as you choose to believe .

The preacher's sermons actually drove me away from God instead of towards Him.

The question I asked of God was this:  "What is the truth?" 

I did not ask to be a better Christian.  I did not ask to be a better follower.  I asked God for the truth.  And over the next few years, I had many experiences that helped me to see what the true nature of God is and the true nature of religion is.  I discovered that they are not always aligned.

I do not claim to know the truth, and perhaps what is different about me compared to many others is I know that I do not have the whole truth.

But the God I eventually found was the God that was always there, though misrepresented by most humans.  God is far more loving and forgiving and supportive than we can even imagine.

May your search reveal to you what you need to see.


Love - the search goes on


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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2007 at 10:39am
Originally posted by frankster

Originally posted by Scott

Personally, I would not follow a cruel and punishing God.
The most vile and cruel of human being shares your sentiments , yet they often say it is the same God most human worship that tells them or on whose behave the do their most dastardly deeds

People often do what they want to do and use God to justify it.  Slavery was justified as being okay with God by slave owners, for example.

I am not one of those who do that.  I follow one guiding principle in life:  Do no harm and live with love.

What that has to do with God, I am not sure.  I would hope He agrees.


-------------
Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
http://www.wistex.com/ - WisTex | http://www.completehostingguide.com/ - Complete Hosting Guide


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2007 at 7:32am
[QUOTEScott]Personally, I would not follow a cruel and punishing God.The most vile and cruel of human being shares your sentiments , yet they often say it is the same God most human worship that tells them or on whose behave the do their most dastardly deeds[/QUOTE]
People often do what they want to do and use God to justify it.  Slavery was justified as being okay with God by slave owners, for example.


This true ! but how where they able to do this justification ? was it validated and legitimatize by the bible to which they turn for guidance as the express written  will of God

I am not one of those who do that.  I follow one guiding principle in life:  Do no harm and live with love.


Yes , but would you kill a chicken to live ? If so are'nt you harming the chicken ? Or is it that your guiding principal only extends to humans ?
Dont tell ....You are a vegetarian or vegan ?

What that has to do with God, I am not sure.  I would hope He agrees.


depends on your conception of God ?


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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2007 at 8:52am
Originally posted by frankster

People often do what they want to do and use God to justify it.  Slavery was justified as being okay with God by slave owners, for example.
This true ! but how where they able to do this justification ? was it validated and legitimatize by the bible to which they turn for guidance as the express written  will of God

You need to talk to a Bible scholar on that one.  But as far as I can tell, people take things out of context and use them to justify their own actions.

Example:  If I said "He said, you are a big fat liar" and then you took the words "He said" away, it would change the meaning, right?  Well, that is what a lot of people to do the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, and other Holy Books.

Originally posted by frankster

I am not one of those who do that.  I follow one guiding principle in life:  Do no harm and live with love.
Yes , but would you kill a chicken to live ? If so are'nt you harming the chicken ? Or is it that your guiding principal only extends to humans ?
Dont tell ....You are a vegetarian or vegan ?

As far as being vegan, I think that humans are unique is that they actually have a choice to be vegan or meat-eaters.  Animals, on the other hand, do not have that choice.  Either they eat plants or they eat meat.  I think if God or the universe thought eating meat was bad, then there wouldn't be so many animals that eat meat on the planet.  We actually have a choice in the matter, and I am not going to knock anyone's choice.

Originally posted by frankster

What that has to do with God, I am not sure.  I would hope He agrees.
depends on your conception of God ?

True.  Or your concept of the universe and good and evil.


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CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2007 at 1:55pm
SO you would kill the chicken ?

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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2007 at 5:13pm
I'm not a vegetarian.  So, yes, I would eat chicken.  I would not do anything that would prolong the suffering of the chicken and I would get no satisfaction from the chicken dying, and I would prefer to not kill the chicken myself, but chickens are eaten by a lot of animals, including humans.  That is actually part of the normal workings of the universe.  Just ask any fox in the hen house.  Even ask the chicken who knows the fox will eat them.  Chickens are food.  If humans didn't eat them, some animal would.

As far as doing harm to others and the universe, eating a chicken is not doing harm.  Neither is eating deer.  In fact if a deer population is overpopulated, what you get is starving deer since there is more deer than deer food.  And, for the deer, starving to death is a far worse death than being shot.

So, on one level, doing no harm applies to humans, where one would do nothing intentionally to harm another.  Humans are held to a higher standard when dealing with other humans (at least in the modern days) and I think that should continue and be observed.  In fact, if you look throughout history, man has not always treated other man very well, and even ate, enslaved, murdered and raped other humans.  I think we should treat each other better than that.

On the other hand, we also have a responsibility to take care of the planet and universe we reside in.  And a human eating a chicken is not doing harm to the universe, just like the fox eating the chicken is not doing harm to the universe.  The chicken may argue otherwise, but in the overall scheme of things, it does no harm, in fact in benefits the fox who now has food.

Like it or not, the universe is setup with a food chain.  We happen to currently be on top.  (Depending on your belief about Darwin and dinosaurs, etc., we may not have always been at the top of the food chain.)  So I have no problem eating a chicken and I thank God we are at the top of the food chain.

Also, I seriously doubt we were meant to be vegetarian, considering that our bodies need protein, which is not found in most vegetables.  Yes, some vegetables have protein in it, but prehistoric man would have starved if they only ate certain foods that may or may not have been available to them.  Vegetables with protein were often unavailable to prehistoric man except in certain regions.  Modern man has the luxury to chose to be vegan, prehistoric man had no choice... eat what was available or die.

If someone wants to be come vegan, I fully support their choice.  But it is a choice, and is not necessarily how all humans have to be.


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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2007 at 11:17pm
So in order to provide sustenance it is ok to harm or kill as long as the life form you are harming is not human
Here is food for thought :- The Europeans who enslaved the Afrikans thought the Afrikans were less than human(sub-human more like primates monkeys and or gorillas) . So if they are or were  using your moral code of ethics then they would be in the right to have enslaved the Afrikans .
Or is it that  ignorance is no excuse ?




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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 12:26am
I knew you were going to try that argument.  Smile

Well, last time I checked, Africans were human, so no it would not be okay to treat them any different than you would want to be treated.

I suppose we could go to extremes and not eat anything because we would then be killing broccoli and corn!  I'm not sure that would fair well for the survival of our species, however, considering pretty much everything we eat must die for us to eat it, with exceptions like milk and cheese.

For me, all humans are created equal, and color, creed or origin does not change that.  All humans should be treated with respect and dignity.

Like I said before, people twist things around to justify whatever they want to justify, just like you have done concerning your statement about Africans being thought of as subhuman by the Europeans of 200 years ago.  People can twist and justify all they want, I just chose to treat all humans equally with respect and dignity.  Whether others do the same, I cannot control, although I can encourage.

I am very well aware of people categorizing other groups of humans as subhuman.  The Europeans did it to Africans.  The "White Man" did it to American Indians.  The Nazis did it to Jews.  The African Tribes did it to other African Tribes.  The Jews did it to the Arabs.  The Muslims do it to the Infidel.  The Christians during the Crusades did it to the Muslims.  The Mongols did it to the Chinese.  The Japanese did it to the Chinese and vice versa.

History is filled with examples of what you describe.  That does not make it right and does not mean I would subscribe to it.

To me there are two groups: human and non-human.  I do not believe there is such a thing as subhuman.  That is something someone made up to justify their actions that I don't believe in.


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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 1:46am
When last you check we were considered human , but back then we were'nt  that being the case they would not be wrong , using your morality . Only now they would be as we are now considered human .

What differenciates humans from other primates ?



Are humans animals ?
Are chickens animals ?

If so why do your morality not afford then the same protection ?


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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 8:32am
Originally posted by frankster

When last you check we were considered human , but back then we weren't

Apparently you did not read what I said.  The Black Africans who sold the competing Black African Tribesmen to the Europeans all thought that the other Black African Tribesmen were "subhuman."  I seriously doubt they thought they were "not human."

Being "subhuman" is not the same as being "not human" as you imply in your reply.

Perhaps some definitions are in order.

Originally posted by Princeton University WordNet

human: any living or extinct member of the family Hominidae characterized by superior intelligence, articulate speech, and erect carriage

Originally posted by Wikipedia

Human beings define themselves in biological, social, and spiritual terms. Biologically, humans are classified as the species Homo sapiens (Latin for "knowing man"): a bipedal primate belonging to the superfamily of Hominoidea, with all of the apes: chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and gibbons.

Originally posted by Wikipedia

subhuman: an inferior human being

My morality does not believe in the concept of subhuman.  And according to my definition of human, Afrikans, Jews, Whites, Asians, Indians and all other "races" are and have always been human.  So I do not see how your questioning of my morality applies.

Originally posted by frankster

What differentiates humans from other primates?

According to the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institute:

Originally posted by Smithsonian

A variety of traits are considered important to the biological and cultural definition of human. Some researchers deem language, art, and consciousness as the most important traits, while others point to the origin of two-legged walking (bipedality) as the starting point of the human lineage. The traits unique to human beings arose at different times over a long period. Some important human characteristics are listed below; it's important to keep in mind that these characteristics are in comparison to other primates, the closest genetic relatives to our species:
  • Habitual bipedality
  • Large brain size (compared with body size)
  • Expanded planning and problem solving abilities
  • Language
  • Art and other forms of symbolic expression
  • Complex cultural learning dependent on symbolic information
  • Dependence on technology for survival
  • Varied diet, including domesticated plants and animals
  • Functional hairlessness
  • Worldwide geographic distribution and adaptation to diverse climates and habitats
  • Greater social complexity
These are just some of the traits that make us human.

Full description here:
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/faq/human.htm - http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/faq/human.htm




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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
http://www.wistex.com/ - WisTex | http://www.completehostingguide.com/ - Complete Hosting Guide


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 11:17am
Subhuman means below human , like for instances monkeys . Yes the Afrikans who sold their brothers knew they were human does that mean the Europeans knew the same .

I note monkeys are part of the extended human family


Most of what the Smithsonian says differenciates us from other primates are only recent accoplishment , which in all likelyhood other primates may accomplish in the future . Plus most of those very traits we share with with the primates the difference is one of degree and not in kind hence it is subjective .

It was many of these same arguments that the racist eugenics type minded European use to argue that Afrikans were subhuman and more closely related to monkeys than to man . They were able to do so because these differences are subjective


What of the chicken , your morality offers them no protection ? are we not all animals in common ?




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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 11:40am
So basically you are saying that people who eat chicken believe in slavery just because they eat chicken?



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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
http://www.wistex.com/ - WisTex | http://www.completehostingguide.com/ - Complete Hosting Guide


Posted By: Joseph
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 12:21pm
Facts changes, But truth remains the same.
As to whether or not the statement is true, depends on the Kingdom that you are living in. Are you functioning in the Kingdom of Darkness or are you functioning in the Kingdom of Light. The Kingdom of darkness functions by the Constitution of the World, The Kingdom of Light functions by the Constitution of God. To whom do you belong. 
   WHO DO YOU SERVE?


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Joseph Miller
CaribbeanChoice.com Staff


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Scott

So basically you are saying that people who eat chicken believe in slavery just because they eat chicken?



NO !  it would be more accurate to say that I believe that believe who practise cruelty against one form of life is more likely to practise it against other forms of life

If for the sake of your own survival , you deny the chicken its right to live , then are you not operating by law of Jungle . In which the strong and mighty is right and can do no wrong when it comes to the weak and defenseless .

Soon the same law will be applied in other sphere of your activity .

Hence the reason why most who believe in a biblical type conception of God are often times very violent and cruel people , as it is commonly accepted that their God will punish those who are deemed evil in the end .

Do not deny your humanity , cause in that denial you become blind to the evil you do in the name of GoOd .


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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 1:16pm
So you are saying all humans should be vegetarian?


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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
http://www.wistex.com/ - WisTex | http://www.completehostingguide.com/ - Complete Hosting Guide


Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Joseph

Facts changes, But truth remains the same.
As to whether or not the statement is true, depends on the Kingdom that you are living in. Are you functioning in the Kingdom of Darkness or are you functioning in the Kingdom of Light. The Kingdom of darkness functions by the Constitution of the World, The Kingdom of Light functions by the Constitution of God. To whom do you belong. 
   WHO DO YOU SERVE?


If truth remains the same why does it matter what kingdom I am living in ?

Does the truth change according to the kingdom you reside ?  

What is the constitution of God ?

And do you not function on this earth -world ?


I am Man and I live in this world , I serve Mankind and by extension Life


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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by Scott

So you are saying all humans should be vegetarian?


I am not a vegetarian

Arent vegetables  living things ?


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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2007 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by frankster

I am not a vegetarian

Aren't vegetables  living things ?


True.  Then what use is the argument that eating meat is akin to believing in slavery?

I can see your slippery slope argument and see what you are getting at.

But that is the problem of extreme positions.  After awhile they just get ridiculous.

Originally posted by frankster

Originally posted by Scott

So basically you are saying that people who eat chicken believe in slavery just because they eat chicken?
NO !  it would be more accurate to say that I believe that believe who practise cruelty against one form of life is more likely to practise it against other forms of life

I would believe that people who are cruel to one form of life would potentially be cruel to other humans.  After all, they are cruel, so its pretty likely cruel people will be cruel.

But you seem to lump all people who eat chickens into the category of being cruel.  That is a very broad and inaccurate assessment.

I would never kill a chicken personally and would get no pleasure from doing so.  So I do not see how I am cruel for eating chicken.  Unless you think eating any living thing is cruel, which is a bit extreme.

Originally posted by frankster

If for the sake of your own survival , you deny the chicken its right to live , then are you not operating by law of Jungle . In which the strong and mighty is right and can do no wrong when it comes to the weak and defenseless .

Soon the same law will be applied in other sphere of your activity .

Hence the reason why most who believe in a biblical type conception of God are often times very violent and cruel people , as it is commonly accepted that their God will punish those who are deemed evil in the end .

Do not deny your humanity , cause in that denial you become blind to the evil you do in the name of GoOd .

I am human and I have made certain decisions about how I conduct life.  I made a promise to myself that I would never intentionally harm another person.  This promise has nothing to do with whether I eat meat, whether I am a Christian or not, or even whether I am Black or not.  I made a decision on how I would live life.

Now, I cannot vouch for others.  You may be right that there is a slippery slope where some people may start treating humans like chickens, but I think that falls into the category of extremists.  And you have extremists at both ends.

You could go down the route that humans are animals and therefore its okay to treat them like animals and therefore enslave them or even eat them... or you could go down the route that animals are just like humans and should be treated like humans and not eat them and give them more rights.  Those are the two ends of the extreme points of view.

Personally I will not entertain extreme ideas because I believe the truth lies somewhere in between.

What you describe is the extremists.  I happen to not be one of those.  I am not perfect, but I try to stay balanced.

And I can only vouch for myself.  What others believe and do, that is what they do, not what I do.

I think it really comes down to the promise I made to myself a long time ago, after being hurt and seeing other people be hurt.  I promised to never harm another human being.  It is that promise that I hold myself account to.  And if I do not keep that promise, then I am not being true to myself.


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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
http://www.wistex.com/ - WisTex | http://www.completehostingguide.com/ - Complete Hosting Guide


Posted By: world42
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2007 at 11:10pm
<sarcasm>Yes, we should follow the unjust law or command since the reward in heaven will be worth it.  I want my 17 virgins, @#$% it.</sarcasm>


Posted By: vutjebal
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2007 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by world42

<sarcasm>Yes, we should follow the unjust law or command since the reward in heaven will be worth it.  I want my 17 virgins, @#$% it.</sarcasm>
...OMG


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It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.


Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2007 at 1:21am
Eek


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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
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Posted By: frankster
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2007 at 10:59am
Originally posted by Scott



Sorry for the delay in getting back to you , but the work load had me on the road for days at a time with no time to relax and share .

True.  Then what use is the argument that eating meat is akin to believing in slavery?


The idea is to recognize that what you are doing is harmful to life even as it may preserve life  .

I can see your slippery slope argument and see what you are getting at.

But that is the problem of extreme positions.  After awhile they just get ridiculous.


All things are either sublime or ridiculous , it is the perspective of the observer that makes the position one or the other . It is equally ridiculous to say that something is all love when it does evil

I would believe that people who are cruel to one form of life would potentially be cruel to other humans.  After all, they are cruel, so its pretty likely cruel people will be cruel.

But you seem to lump all people who eat chickens into the category of being cruel.  That is a very broad and inaccurate assessment.


I lump nothing , If one is cruel to life , one is cruel and that cruelty will find expression in all or most of the rest of your activities .

[quote]I would never kill a chicken personally and would get no pleasure from doing so.  So I do not see how I am cruel for eating chicken.  Unless you think eating any living thing is cruel, which is a bit extreme.


But you are benefiting from the cruelty done to the chicken . How are you not as responsible as the actual murder of the chicken ?

[quote]I am human and I have made certain decisions about how I conduct life.  I made a promise to myself that I would never intentionally harm another person.  This promise has nothing to do with whether I eat meat, whether I am a Christian or not, or even whether I am Black or not.  I made a decision on how I would live life.



 While this may be true , one may unknowingly contribute to the creation and  continuation of evil by obeying unjust laws tacitly or implicitly through you actions or inactions .

[quote]Now, I cannot vouch for others.  You may be right that there is a slippery slope where some people may start treating humans like chickens, but I think that falls into the category of extremists.  And you have extremists at both ends.

You could go down the route that humans are animals and therefore its okay to treat them like animals and therefore enslave them or even eat them... or you could go down the route that animals are just like humans and should be treated like humans and not eat them and give them more rights.  Those are the two ends of the extreme points of view.

Personally I will not entertain extreme ideas because I believe the truth lies somewhere in between.

What you describe is the extremists.  I happen to not be one of those.  I am not perfect, but I try to stay balanced.

And I can only vouch for myself.  What others believe and do, that is what they do, not what I do.

I think it really comes down to the promise I made to myself a long time ago, after being hurt and seeing other people be hurt.  I promised to never harm another human being.  It is that promise that I hold myself account to.  And if I do not keep that promise, then I am not being true to myself.



Extreme or balance is a matter of culture time and place , as the 1800 century Europeans  thought  it extreme to bathe more than twice a year  .
You may consider yourself balance by todays standards , but are you balance by eternal standards ?


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Posted By: Scott
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2007 at 11:27am
Originally posted by frankster

Extreme or balance is a matter of culture time and place , as the 1800 century Europeans  thought  it extreme to bathe more than twice a year.
You may consider yourself balance by todays standards , but are you balance by eternal standards?

Interesting question.

Of course, I am not balanced according to outside standards.  Christians would find me unbalanced.  Atheists would find me unbalanced.  Buddhists would find me unbalanced.  Hindus would find me unbalanced. Muslims would find me unbalanced.  Jews would find me unbalanced.  Et cetera. Et cetera.

Why?  Because I take the best of what I learn and observe and try to apply it.

Most people subscribe to their set of beliefs and refuse to look at anything else.  They get so entrenched in their positions that they cannot learn anything new because they are so sure they already know the truth.  And this statement applies to both atheists and religious people... and even secular people.  If you think you already know the truth, you will never learn.

I am here to grow and learn and expand myself, even if that means looking at things that are foreign to me.

And I am student of history, so I am well aware of standards of the past, many of those standards we would be appalled at today.

I really don't care about other people's standards, whether they be ones from the past or the present.  What I care about it being the best I can and making a positive difference in the world.

I may not be balanced, although I try to be.  But I am definitely more open minded than most Christians and Atheists who refuse to look outside the their belief system.


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Scott M. Stolz
CaribbeanChoice.com. Inc. Staff
http://www.wistex.com/ - WisTex | http://www.completehostingguide.com/ - Complete Hosting Guide



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